"Pennellate" fulve su fondo nero

Posseggo il ceppo cui appartiene questo soggetto da 4 anni; Lui é un giovane nato a maggio 2009.



Qui dall'altro lato per vedere la simmetria della pennellature



I suoi genitori sono perfettamente neri così come tutti i suoi parenti dato che, in 4 anni, e dopo aver riprodotto circa una ventina di soggetti dai miei originari riproduttori, mai sono nati esemplari con focature simili (questo esemplare nasce dall'incrocio di padre e figlia entrambi neri).
Qual'é la ragione genetica di queste pennellature?
Ci può essere, viceversa, al posto di una ragione genetica, lo zampino (o meglio altro) di costui?

Secondo me è il "costui" che ha tutta la colpa!!!
quel fulvo sulle copritrici delle ali del soggetto nero è dovuto ad un'intromissione di altre colorazioni nel ceppo nero, e se dici che in 4 generazioni non ti era mai successo, allora molto probabilmente la colpa ce l'ha il quaglietto!

I not really understand the question !
On the first and second photo I see a Black cock and green shine with some dark red on the wingbows .
So in genetic he is probably E/E reinforced with Ml based on gold s+/s+ reinforced with Mh.
The other cock on photo 3 could be a "Red Columbia" eb/eb or eWh/eWh with Co/Co (all the black is pushed to the endings as neck, tail and wing penns) on s+/s+ reinforced with Mh/Mh (dark red) with also Ml/Ml (green shine on the black feathers)

Si anche secondo me c'è lo zampino del quaglia!!! Però è molto bello, è lucidisssssimo!
Che bel posto Saveria, hanno davvero tantissimo spazio per muoversi :)

Danny, up to when this subject of the first two photos has not completed the molt I was convinced that him pits child of black rooster and hen because he was born with entirely black eider-down.
When then I have seen the red feathers on the wing, instead I have not been very sure of it.
Particularly I don't know if, to genetic level, from the intersection of black subjects that they produce black children from generations, or from the intersection of black parents and black children give birth black similar to photo 1 - 2.
I don't know a lot of genetics but I am directed to believe of no;
I have thought rather than the rooster of the first two photos is child of a black hen and the rooster of the last photo (they are met secretly probably ) and therefore an intersection among two colorations. You what you think of it?

P.S. Io mi scuso per l'inglese terrificante, probabilmente non avrà alcun senso giacché ho usato il traduttore automatico.
Se qualcuno di voi ha capito cosa vorrei sapere e sa l'inglese non potrebbe farmi la cortesia di spiegare?
Le piume di questo gallo mi farebbero pensare alla non purezza della linea di Barbute nere che posseggo.. tuttavia, sino ad ora e dopo 4 anni questo é il primo soggetto che nasce così su circa una ventina..Allora posso anche pensare che la colpa di tutto non sia della non purezza della linea che posseggo quanto piuttosto di un inopinato intervento del mio riproduttore quaglia.

Per danny:
Il soggetto della terza foto é un "quail" di selezione tedesca (molto rossa).
Puoi vedere un analogo "quail" tra le colorazioni standard nella bildgalerie di questo sito tedesco:
www.antwerpener-bartzwerge.de/
Il cosiddetto "buff columbia", che pure puoi trovare sul sito che ti ho indicato, ha coda nera ma é diverso; in germania non sembre esistere un rosso columbia, almeno a quanto ne so io

Ci provo io ma non assicuro nulla :P
I'll try to translate, i'll made some mistakes for sure!!
Saveria have had black d'anvers bantams for years, and in 4 generations they've always produced black chicks.
Then this almost-all-black cockerel! Before the juvenile molting he was completly black, but then it shows up the red on the wings, and she started doubting about the 'pureness' of her black d'anvers bantams.
But probably it's just fault of the quail d'anvers cockerel (the color is quail, not red columbian), that could have mated a black hen! this could be the reason for the gold feathers on the wings of this cockerel!
What do you think about it Danny?

Danny,
Pushok is asking herself why the first cockerel, instead to be totally black, shows the red feathers on the wingbows.
She's got Black D'Anvers since many years and this cockerel is from the offsprings of the 4th generation. All the black cockerels and hens have been always totally black and this one is the only one to show this strange and unwanted red colour.
Her doubt is: maybe the black bloodline is not pure or maybe the second cockerel is the resonsible of this situation?
The second cockerel is a Quail d'Anvers, from Germany. In Germany the Quail colour is a little bit different from other standards (darker than UK standard, for ex.) and the Quail red parts are very similar to the ones you can see on the wingbows of the first cockerel.
So, what's your opinion? Not 100% pure black bloodline or simply a betrayal between the second cockerel and one of Pushok hens? :-)

Eheheh Marco, abbiamo fatto la stessa cosa :-)
Beh, almeno ci sono due versioni e Danny può comprendere meglio :-)

cliveclive, 12/01/2011 0.43:

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Eheheh Marco, abbiamo fatto la stessa cosa :-)
Beh, almeno ci sono due versioni e Danny può comprendere meglio :-)

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ahahah si diciamo che la mia traduzione è giusto un pelino più elementare,ma giusto un po'! il tuo è decisamente più completo :)

Pensavo esattamente il contrario... Io sono autodidatta in inglese e chissà quante ne sparo senza rendermene nemmeno conto... :-)

Anche io autodidatta. Avevo una professoressa al liceo che era tanto buona e simpatica quanto incapace ad insegnare, non che fosse ingorante in materia, anzi, ma non riusciva a stabilire un regime autoritario ahah nelle sue ore c'era il caos piu totale! Peccato perche la sua era l'unica materia che mi interessasse davvero...scusate l'OT!

comunque in questi casi l'importante è farsi capire e capire, anche se se ne sparano delle grosse, chi se ne frega :)

Grazie for the translations Carlo, Marco and Saviera :-)

Start with knowing all colorations in or chickens consist out of ONLY 2 color-pigments, Black-pigment (eumelanin) and Red-pigment (pheomelanin) and the absence of these two (we see as white).

I try to give my point of view in this. As I explained in my genetic-page to start understand what genetic color-gens are doing (acting and interacting) you always need to consider these 4 genes entwined, if not we will always missing the point.
These 4 genes are situated on the E-locus, S-locus, Ml-locus and Mh-locus (locus is the place where the genes are situated on the chromosome-line)
All the other "color-genes" you could call only are supplements with a certain action.

First I show the difference between a "Columbian" and "Quail" pattern in the Antwerp Baardkriel.
Buff Columbian Antwerp Baardkriel Quail Antwerp Baardkriel


The difference between the 2 cocks I posted is the first one is a "Buff Columbia" the second is a "Quail Columbia".
The only difference with these 2 cocks and the cock of Saviera is the one of Saviera is "Red" these 2 I posted here are "Buff".

Genetically the "Columbia" and the "Quail" (as well the Buff as the Red) are very close in genoom (genetic-formule).
We can discus on which mutation of the E-locus these cocks have there ground-color, there are 3 possibillities e+/e+ - eb/eb - eWh/eWh even a mixture of these 3 are possible e+/eb - e+/eWh - eb/eWh . It not make really a difference for what I want to let you see .
So we agree in the example I give they are "eWh/eWh".

Now we look the genoom of the 4 phenotypical colorations of these cocks
Buff Columbian : eWh/eWh s+/s+ Mh/Mh or Mh/mh+ ml+/ml+ Co/Co or Co/co+ Di/Di or Di/di+
Red Columbian : eWh/eWh s+/s+ Mh/Mh or Mh/mh+ ml+/ml+ Co/Co or Co/co+ di+/di+
Buff Quail : eWh/eWh s+/s+ Mh/Mh or Mh/mh+ Ml/Ml or Ml/ml+ Co/Co or Co+co+ Di/Di or Di/di+
Red Quail : eWh/eWh s+/s+ Mh/Mh or Mh/mh+ Ml/Ml or Ml/ml+ Co/Co or Co/co+ di+/di+

As you can see it are always the same genes that are involved in these 4 colorations (it is always about the same action and interaction between these genes that make the phenotype less or more different).

What we remark here ?
-the Red not have the "Di"-gene (=diluter of red-pigment) as the Buff have.
-the Columbian not have the "Ml"-gene (=intensifier of black-pigment) as the Quail have.

Now we can come to the point and to the question Saviera asked .
A completely Black cock with green shine and NO gold or dark red on the wingbows (so also no violet shine) have this genoom : E/E s+/s+ Ml/Ml mh+/mh+
The Black cock of Saviera with green shine that show dark red on the wingbows could have this genoom : E/E s+/s+ Ml/ml+ Mh/Mh or Mh/mh+
So because of "Ml/ml+" (only one black-pigment reinforcing allel Melanotic instead of two) the gold reinforced by the Mahagony allel(es) can come to the surface.

Why this suddenly can happen I try to explaine here :

Now if you breed always "Pure Black" X "Pure Black" you get always "Pure Black"
OR it should be that one of the parents was NOT completely pure !!
Than when the genes come together in a certain way (because a chick get always one allel of a gene from the father and one allel of the same gene of the mother to become again a gene with 2 allels, ex. Ml/Ml become Ml/ml+) than we can become suddenly a different outcome in one of the offsprings.
OR it should be that one of the Pure parents got unexpected visit of an other coloration of the opposit sexe and than of course we can get a completely different outcome in several of the offsprings.

Now you can understand why it is so very important to understand the basics of the acting and interacting of the color-genes so it become very easy to calculate what happened when you see one of the offspring different colored or you can even calculate in front what will be the outcome of the offspring when you do a color-cross with a certain reason.


When you not understand from the first time, read it again a little bit later and even several times but you will see you will understand the working of the genes eventually. (I needed several months because also I started from "niente" ;-)

ahahhahaah! Danny, dovrò domandare ripetizioni di certo!!!
Studierò bene, promesso!!

pushok-mc, 12-1-2011 13:13:

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ahahhahaah! Danny, dovrò domandare ripetizioni di certo!!!
Studierò bene, promesso!!

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Sorry Saviera, I always try to be much complete !!

But simpel said your Black cock with red on the wing is a what is called an "unpure" for the Black coloration because he lack the "black-intensifier" Melanotic, so the gold intensified by Mahogany to dark red can come in his wingbow.
Most possible there was a connection with your "red Quail" ;-)

I got these colorations for you :

Danny_57, 14/01/2011 18.42:

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I got these colorations for you :

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Wow!
Je suis trés heureuse de ta precieuse collaboration Danny.

pushok-mc, 15-1-2011 8:06:

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Wow!
Je suis trés heureuse de ta precieuse collaboration Danny.

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Prego Saviera, I try for some more but I expect you to come and collect them here ;-)
Prego Saviera, j'essaye en plus mais je vous attends pour les venir prendre ici ;-)

I found 10 other colorations in Barbue d'Anvers.
Ho trovato altre 10 colorazioni in Barbue d'Anvers.

Millefiori limone
Porcellana isabel
Bianca Columbia nera
Fulva Columbia nera
Bianca Columbia blu
Nere picchiettata bianco
Grigio Perla
Grigio Perla picchiettata bianco
Fulva a perle bianche
Blu