Nero X Nera = grigio ?!?

Danny, but if he is gray pearl (you have this gene in some your chickens, right?) it is normal.

In this line there is NO gray pearl !

As you could read in the title the parents where both Black.
This are the same chicks a few days later (not a so good photo) you can see clearly the developping wingfeathers of the "gray" chick are NOT gray pearl but dull black .

Now again a few days later, this you can't call gray pearl, right ?

Ah, ok, in the first photo he was different...

Tunde73, 4-4-2012 15:02:

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Ah, ok, in the first photo he was different...

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So what can this be ?

Seems not blue (also if as I know you have that gene in some your chickens), then I immagine an i+ gene's allele.

Indeed, blue not is a possibility because both parents were Black.
(Blue is a incomplete Dominant gene and show himself even when in heterozygous)
I suspected the difference could be due E/E Ml/.. and E/E ml+/ml+ but I was assured by several geneticists this is not the case.
One of them (calculator creator) suggested the possibility, indeed as you do, a mutation on the I-locus and he specified one.
How come also you come to that suggestion ?
Which one would you specifie and why ?

Everybody's help/suggestions would be much appreciated, grazie.

Could the difference of intensity of the chicks pluff come due the absence of "id+" ?
(Most probably) the father was E/E S/S mo/mo (w/w) fm+/fm+ Id/Id H+/H+, the mother was E/E S/- Mo+/Mo+ (W+/W+) Fm/Fm id+/- h/h
Because of the sex-linkage of "id+" the mother could give this only to her sons and not to her daughters.
The chicks genotype should be E/E S/S*S/- Mo+/mo (W+/w) Fm/fm+ Id/id+*Id/- H+/h
Both chicks have pigmented skins (Fm/fm+ = autosomale & incomplete Dominant) but both have also dark shanks (with lighter toe tips) !!

Is this an unlikely argument?

Danny, I thougt to an I allele because from my platenbonts time ago were born some chickens with that colour. And if were not for the I gene, also platenbonts would blacks as your adults.
(Looking the photos the chicks seems not a blue, I asked about it because, as you have noted (time ago), sometimes blue chickens seems black. But I am sure you checked them.)

Just think deeper along with your genetic-knowledge ;-)

Danny_57, 6-4-2012 22:51:

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Just think deeper along with your genetic-knowledge ;-)

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www.jacquielawson.com/viewcard.asp?code=3427228463040&...

Nice :-)

Tunde73, 7-4-2012 17:26:

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Nice :-)

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Buona Pasqua a tutti sul forum !

Anche a voi!

Danny_57, 6-4-2012 22:51:

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Just think deeper along with your genetic-knowledge ;-)

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Just some chickengenetics/mutation explanation that could come close !

Smoky : I^S (Autosomal, both Dominant & recessive).
Changes eumelanin - black to smoky shade.
One dose visible in chick down- bluish, but two doses needed for adult plumage expression.
Allelic to I (Dominant to I).

Smoky was a mutation found in ADOL Line 0. This is a non inbred line that does not have any intact avian leukosis subgroup E retrovirus in their genomes. It is a White Leghorn line derived from a mix of commercial sources. It is segregating blue, and recessive mottling as well as having birchin and sex-linked barring and silver.

I told (Dr.) Whiting how to deal with the blue. It messes up identification of the birds with Smoky. The gray feathers of Smoky can't be distinguished from the gray feathers of blue. Both have rounded off melanosomes instead of rod shaped.

It would be best to cross the birds to a black line and note the chick down types. Smoky is dominant on chick down like blue you get gray chick down, but the juvenile and adult feathers come in black instead of gray. So you throw away the chicks that stay gray because they have blue and you keep the gray chicks that turn black. If you cross these black birds together you will get 3/4 gray chicks with 1/4 gray chicks that stay gray and are pure smoky. If you are unlucky enough to get a bird that is BlBl you will have to make a backcross to the black line to segregate blue from Smoky.

Smoky can be a true breeding gray. With red modifiers it can be a true breeding chocolate milk color. So it would be better for these color patterns than Dun is. It should also make a true breeding blue red possible.

The only problem with Smoky is that if you believe in breed preservation these color types will become obsolete using the old Blue and Dun genes that do not breed true, so I don't really advocate widespread distrubution, but you can't stop progress. Once it becomes established the old breeds will be in the minority because not very many backyard breeders are going to pass up the chance to not throw away 1/2 of their progeny because they can't show them as that color. The breeders of blue reds will be very happy because Smoky doesn't dilute red. As an allele of dominant white it dilutes black more than red. Blue laced reds could breed true etc. I guess it isn't a current worry because it will probably take 20 to 30 years before it becomes a problem. By that time they may have two standards and you will have to tell the judge the genotype of your birds with a DNA certificate of authenticity to determine what category they are in. wink

I have a picture of the Smoky gray (ISIS) on a Black Australorp background next to her heterozygous black sister (ISi+) if someone wants to post it, send your email address and I'll send the pic. Hackles and saddles of the males are darker gray like Andalusian blue.

Here you can see how evoluate the chicks with the "grayish" chick down :

Comments: The smoky gene is an allele belonging to the dominant white locus. Smoky is dominant to dominant white in both chick down and adult plumage in that extended black with I/I^S (E/E I/I^S) results in grey chick down and adult plumage. Research to date indicates that i+/I^S heterozygotes express more the wild-type phenotype with respect to this gene indicating a recessive character with respect to the wild-type. The melanosomes resulting from the expression of smokey resemble those resulting from Andalusian Blue. Smoky dilutes black much more than red/gold.

A useful note : smoky is dominant on the chick down of I^S/i+ heterozygotes in that down that should be black is gray. This should help people introgress the gene because it isn't fully recessive to wild-type. They can do repeated backcrosses and still identify the birds that carry the allele.

Pepe, did you notice this "smokey" (fumo) was derived from (White) Leghorns, so you Livorno-breeders are the source of the "Philomena" ;-)