Colorazione sparviero troppo scura

Ho un galletto di olandese nana colorazione sparviero, però essendo nato da madre sparviero grigio perla e padre blu collo oro la colorazione non è perfetta, anzi tutt'altro!
Presenta alcune piume oro e nere, soprattutto nel groppone.
Le remiganti delle ali non hanno barrature molto visibili, inoltre la colorazione in generale è abbastanza scura, mentre nei maschi la colorazione sparviero dovrebbe essere piu chiara rispetto a quella del mio galletto. Però ha un bel disegno sul petto, è molto regolare e con nessuna piuma oro o nera!
Cosa mi consigliate di fare?? Io pensavo di accasarlo sicuramente con la madre sparviero grigio perla...
Ora magari dirò una cavolata, ma per schiarire la colorazione non potrei accoppiarlo cn una femmina bianca?

foto del galletto




foto della madre (in foto non sembra nemmeno sparviero grigio perla, le barrature sono difficilmente visibili anche dal vivo!)

First a little basic genetic information. What is the coloration Sparviero in genetics ?
Every chicken have a gene from the "E-locus" (there is the original gene "e+" and 4 mutations "E" - "ER" - "eWh" - "eb")
For the Sparviero it should be :
- E-locus : E = Extended Black is the ground-coloration which is autosomale (for both sexes the same) : E/E (when "homozygote" = "pure).
That gene of the E-locus that every chicken have is always based on the "S-Locus" gene (there is the original gene "s+" and 1 mutation "S")
For the Sparviero it could be :
- S-locus : S = Silver is no red-pigment , s+ = NOT Silver is red-pigment (=gold) which is sex-linked (different if cock or hen) on which the ground-coloration is based on : S/S (pure Silver cock) or S/s+ (unpure Silver cock) or s+/s+ (pure gold cock) and S/- (pure Silver hen) or s+/- (pure gold hen)
To become the "barring-pattern" of the Sparviero we need :
- B-locus : B = Barring is the drawing which is sex-linked (different if cock or hen) : B/B (light cock) or B/b+ (dark cock) and B/- (dark hen)

(this was not the complete genetic story but enough basics to understand what is happening).

Now the cross that you made was "padre blu collo oro" X "madre sparviero grigioperla" .
We need to write this in genetics to can make the genetic-calculation for the colorations of your young cock.
(e+/e+ or eb/eb) s+/s+ Bl/bl+ X E/E (S/- or s+/-) B/- lav/lav . So your cock can be (E/e+ or E/eb) (s+/s+ or S/s+) (Bl/bl+ or bl+/bl+) B/b+ Lav+/lav
In common words he have an unpure black groundcolor based on pure gold or unpure Silver that unpure black diluted by Blue or not he have one barring allel and he his carrier of one lavender allel.

You want your young Sparviero cocks more lighter?
Do you intend the double Barring "B/B" ?
If so you can cross this young cock back on his mother because she have one barring allel* so in the offspring you can become 25% of "B/B" light colored Sparviero cocks.
Do you intend the single Barring "B/b+" ?
Than the only way to become more lighter Sparviero cocks is by selection (there are always that are a little more lighter colored because of the quicker growing of the feathers and so become a weighter light barring what results in a visual lighter coloration).

Crossing your young Sparviero cock with a white hen have NO use because white have nothing to do with the light barrings in a Sparviero.

*
you can see the subtile barring lines in the tailfeathers of the motherhen.

Thanks a lot Danny, you're really disposable like always!
I'm gonna read it more carefully tomorrow, trying to understand some genetic! now I'm too tired eheh
Anyway reading what you've written, i will surely not 'use' a white hen with this cock, but her mother for sure! thank you very much :)

Ma perché hai utilizzato un blu collo oro? Sarebbe stato meglio un padre senza oro, anche nero o blu :-)
Le fiammature dorate rischiano di uscire fuori anche nelle generazioni successive..

E' davvero un peccato che le interessanti precisazioni di Danny siano sempre in Inglese..
Qualche volenteroso potrebbe tradurre per cortesia? Ho provato con i traduttore automatico ma viene fuori un pasticcio.. non si capisce niente.

Traduzione
Vuoi un gallo sparviero più chiaro?Intendi la doppia barratura B/B?
Se si puoi incrociare questo giovane gallo con la madre originaria perchè ha un allele del barrato..quindi potrai avere il 25% di B/B galli sparviero chiaro.
Se invece intendi la singola barratura B/b+ (penso si riferisca a galli eterozigoti)..l'unico modo per ottenere galli sparviero più chiaro è la selezione (ci sono quelli che sono sempre un po' più chiari dovuto alla crescita più veloce delle penne e quindi diventano un barrato chiaro più largo dando l'effetto di una maggiore chiarezza della colorazione.

Incrociare questo giovane gallo sparviero con una gallina bianca non ha senso perchè il bianco non ha niente a che vedere con la barratura chiara dello sparviero.

You want your young Sparviero cocks more lighter?
Do you intend the double Barring "B/B" ?
If so you can cross this young cock back on his mother because she have one barring allel* so in the offspring you can become 25% of "B/B" light colored Sparviero cocks.
Do you intend the single Barring "B/b+" ?
Than the only way to become more lighter Sparviero cocks is by selection (there are always that are a little more lighter colored because of the quicker growing of the feathers and so become a weighter light barring what results in a visual lighter coloration).

Crossing your young Sparviero cock with a white hen have NO use because white have nothing to do with the light barrings in a Sparviero

cliveclive, 09/01/2011 23.24:

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Ma perché hai utilizzato un blu collo oro? Sarebbe stato meglio un padre senza oro, anche nero o blu :-)
Le fiammature dorate rischiano di uscire fuori anche nelle generazioni successive..

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Perchè purtroppo era l'unico che avevo.
Quando ho acquistato la femmina (da un commerciante a NostrAvicoli nel 2009) non c'era il maschio nella stessa colorazione, era in coppia con un galletto di Bantam grigio perla, si vede che si erano confusi, altrimenti avrei preso la coppia di sicuro!

cliveclive, 9-1-2011 23:24:

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Ma perché hai utilizzato un blu collo oro? Sarebbe stato meglio un padre senza oro, anche nero o blu :-)
Le fiammature dorate rischiano di uscire fuori anche nelle generazioni successive..

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Interesting remarkes you make Carlo !
First : "Blu collo oro" you obviously can see this chicken is based on gold, and since it is a "padre" he have the gold in 2 alleles "s+/s+".
Second if the padre had been "nero" or "blu" there it is maybe NOT so obviously but the both can contain as much gold alleles as the padre 'Blu collo oro" just it is maybe not visible in the phenotype.
Look the padre "Blu collo oro" should be gentically on the E-locus : E/E or e+/e+ or eb/eb on the S-locus he was s+/s+ on the Bl-locus he was Bl/bl+
If the padre was "nero" he was on the E-locus E/E but he could have been on the S-locus s+/s+ exactely the same as the "Blue collo oro"
Same for the padre "blue" he was on the E-locus E/E on the B-locus Bl/bl+ and on the S-locus he could have been exactely the same as the padre "blu collo oro" s+/s+.

For the "fliamature dorate" there is an other gene that allow it or prefend it. When the "Black-pigment" is reinforced by the gene "Melanotic" (Ml/Ml) than it NOT allow "fliamature dorate" when that gene "Melantic" is not present (ml+/ml+) than it can allow the "fliamature dorate". When it is something in between you get something in between, I intend, in controverse with the written genitic rules, Ml/ml+ and you get as you see on the young cock o the photo !!!

I will let you see 3 details in the young cock where you can determinate with if a gene is present or not !

Look this arrow, it shows a feather with a green shine, this indicates this chicken have the "melanotic" (Ml) gene !

look here the 2 arrows, the first one shows there is present gold (the yellowish feather) without the gene "Magohony" otherwise the feather had been dark red.
The second arrow show a dark red feather wich indicates this chicken have the "Autosomale red" (Ar+) which is something completely different than the gold (s+) reinforced by the Magahony (Mg)

Some of the forum members know exactely what I am talking about. I wonder if they will stand up and speak about what I indicate here or they will say nothing and exclude me from speaking more about this item !! ??

Danny_57, 10/01/2011 18.03:

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Some of the forum members know exactely what I am talking about. I wonder if they will stand up and speak about what I indicate here or they will say nothing and exclude me from speaking more about this item !! ??

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Hi Danny,
I think you've been very careful in explaining the Melanotic and Mahogany gene effects on feathers.
So, if I have right understood, this cockerel is:
Ml/ml+ (Eterozygote Melanotic),
mh+/mh+ (he doesn't have Mahogany gene because the flames are more yellow than red)
Ar+/Ar+ (he has this gene that produces some little dark red feathers)

I didn't know the existence of the Autosomical red gene: thank you for this :-) Is it a dominant or recessive gene?

What did you mean with your last sentence? Is there anyone intervention you're wishing to read? From any particular person? Sorry for my english, I try to do my best :-)
Carlo
P.S. Are the Melanotic gene effects also present in one of the tail feathers? Do you see the green sharp in this?

Ciao tutti,
Carlo, I explained about the "Ml" and "Mh" as I interpretate the working of these genes by making comparations of there effects in certain crosses. There are of course the written genetic rules and these say contratictory to what I say ! For example, "a Dominant gene (as are "Ml" and "Mh") need only ONE allel to have the same effect in the phenotype as TWO allels". In other words "Mh/mh+" should have the same phenotypical effect as "Mh/Mh". For what I have seen is this NOT correct. I can present several different examples to prove this if you want.
(This gives at the same time an answer to your question "What did you mean with your last sentence?"

The excistance of Autosomal red (Ar+) is NOT officially recognized nor investigated scientifically but known by every "Argento" breeder ! (Autosomal red means this "red" comes in the both sexes so it is NOT sex-linked as the gold (s+) is.
It was given the symbole "Ar+" by an author of "a" genetic book.
It is a partically Dominant and original ("ghost") gene. (Dominat you can see because written with a Capital letter and original because followed with that "+").

When a chicken have the Melanotic or Mahogany gene it give his effect over the complete feathering (not only on the place where you seen the "shine".
When present Melanotic you can see a "green" shine.
When present Mahogany you can see a "violet" shine.
Both, Melanotic and Mahogany are pigment "intensifieres", Melanotic for the black-pigment, Mahogany for the red-pigment.

Danny

Danny_57, 10/01/2011 18.03:

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Some of the forum members know exactely what I am talking about. I wonder if they will stand up and speak about what I indicate here or they will say nothing and exclude me from speaking more about this item !! ??

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Hallo,

Ik heet Francesco, ik volg met veel interesse uw mail.
Uw commentaar geeft veel waarde aan het forum, voor mij is het heel, interessant omdat ik nog veel te leren heb.
Laat u niet afschrikken of beledigen en doe zo verder, mensen zoals ik kan niet reageren omdat we nog aan het leren zijn.
Voor mijn beroep ben ik vaak in Belgie, het zou mij een eer zijn u te leren kennen. Is dit mogelijk ?

Met vriendelijke groeten,
Francesco

Ciao Francesco,

doet plezier dat je interesse hebt in kleurengenetica, graag help ik je indien je vragen hebt.
Natuurlijk laat ik mijn niet afschikken en ook niet beledigen maar ik wil ook geen "Don Quichotte" zijn in deze.
Graag had ik meerdere gelijkgestemde, gelijkdenkende zien samenwerken ter verbetering wat ons hier allen nauw aan het hart ligt, onze kippen welk ras of kleur dan ook en zo ieders niveau proberen te verhogen.
Natuurlijk ben je welkom als je in Belgie bent, je kan zelfs blijven logeren en mee eten met ons. Voor verder details spreken we wel verder.

Ciao Danny

Oh Santo Dio!
Non bastava l'inglese..Adesso addirittura l'olandese?
Il mio traduttore non ha questa lingua. E come si fa?

pushok-mc, 11-1-2011 18:56:

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Oh Santo Dio!
Non bastava l'inglese..Adesso addirittura l'olandese?
Il mio traduttore non ha questa lingua. E come si fa?

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haha, is not "olandese" but "flemish" ;-)

Danny_57, 11/01/2011 19.18:

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haha, is not "olandese" but "flemish" ;-)

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Cioé fiammingo?! Apposto siamo

Ma.. nessuno parla un po' di quella bella e musicale lingua che é il francese?
Do you speack french Danny?

pushok-mc, 11-1-2011 19:25:

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Cioé fiammingo?! Apposto siamo

Ma.. nessuno parla un po' di quella bella e musicale lingua che é il francese?
Do you speack french Danny?

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oui je parle aussi un peu le français mais j'aime plus l'italien

pushok-mc, 11-1-2011 19:25:

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Cioé fiammingo?! Apposto siamo

Ma.. nessuno parla un po' di quella bella e musicale lingua che é il francese?
Do you speack french Danny?

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Wenn Sie wünschen, können wir auch Deutsch sprechen .