Gallina Moroseta perniciata argento

Una giovane Moroseta perniciata argento di quest'anno.









Clodiloa

Bella di morfologia!!

Yes indeed, a nice formed perniciata Argento Moroseta hen.
clodiloa, you not want to intensifie the coloration ?

molto bella veramente, ha una rotondità stupenda, ho una sorella della tua che sta venendo su molto bene, ti farò vedere una foto

Yes, I want but now it's so. To intensify the color what do you do? Do you cross her with a black cock? Clodiloa

Bene Henry, posta qualche foto.

clodiloa, 30-8-2011 0:34:

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Yes, I want but now it's so. To intensify the color what do you do? Do you cross her with a black cock? Clodiloa

Bene Henry, posta qualche foto.

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Ciao Clodiloa, I like to give you my point of view of how I would approach this situation.

This hen have a good type but the intensity of her coloration have diminished by the chosen crosses that are responsible for the reducing of the black pigment.
The first thing that comes in mind is cross her with a black cock, on first side this seems a relevant solution. But it is not !
A Black cock should have as ground-color E/E (= Extended Black) , your hen have as ground-color eb/eb (= Asiatic Partridge).
You can see this are not matches because when you cross these 2 you should become as ground-color E/eb (= Black) because the "E" is dominant over the "eb".

How to approach this situation ?
First we have to know what are the color-genes she have and second what should be the color-genes she need. In this way we know what she need to become and what she must loose.
Now for me your perniciata Argento hen have as genetic-code "eb/eb S/- Co/co+ Pg/pg+" and she should have "eb/eb S/- co+/co+ Pg/Pg".
The Dominant gene Columbia, in this case heterozygote (in single doses) "Co/co+" is responsible (partly) for the pushing the black pigment to the endings (head/neck, tail, wings and foodfeathers).
The Dominant gene Pattern, in this case heterozygote (in single doses) "Pg/pg+" is responsible (partly) for the not pronounced mutiple pattern.
To intensify the coloration you need to get out the gene Columbia (co+/co+) which she have now in a single doses and to bring back together the double doses for the multiple Pattern (Pg/Pg) which she have now in a single doses.

How you can do this ?
You need to cross her with a perniciata Argento cock,
first choses : a perniciata Argento cock who have not the gene Columbia (co+/co+) , or second choses : who have the gene Columbia in a single doses (Co/co+)
and
first chose : a perniciata Argento cock who have the gene Pattern in double doses (Pg/Pg), or second choses : who have the gene Pattern in a single doses (Pg/pg+).

That will bring you to your intensified hen : black patterned silver multiple laced partridge/brown (eb/eb Pg/Pg S/-).


This is what is called a detailed determination of the lacks in the practice into theoretical approach to can come to a solution in the practice.

(sorry it was a rather long and slow explanation)

Danny

Thank you for your complete explanation. I unederstand.
I have a perniciato argento cock, but it's of light color too.
I believe that it's heterozigous(per. Argento/per. oro).These are its photos.






How can I obtein white columbia?

Clodiloa

clodiloa, 30-8-2011 20:47:

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How can I obtein white columbia?

Clodiloa

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This is not as simple as the theory tell us !!

Because for some reason it seems not to be possible to create in Silkies the coloration "Columbia" in both sexes !
The gene "Co/Co" not work in the same way on hens as on cocks, resulting in hens as "incomplete Columbia", they look as light Silver partridges or as white blacktails. The cocks come close to what should be "Columbia".

We did yet in 2008 a presentation of "Columbia" Silkies in Bruges on the international exhibition

This was as close as I ever came !



For more details look my website www.zijdehoenders.be

Ok,thank you for your new explanation.
My cock is a light silver partrige, but it seems a columbia. What do you think about? Clodiloa

clodiloa, 31-8-2011 7:29:

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Ok,thank you for your new explanation.
My cock is a light silver partrige, but it seems a columbia. What do you think about? Clodiloa

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I suppose your question is about the coloration ! We do it in the same way as with the hen .

How to approach this situation ?
First we have to know what are the color-genes he have and second what should be the color-genes he need. In this way we know what he need to become and what he must loose.
Now for me your "light" perniciata Argento cock have as genetic-code "eb/eb S/s+ Co/co+ Pg/pg+" and he should have "eb/eb S/S Co/Co pg+/pg+".
The Dominant gene Columbia, in this case heterozygote (in single doses) "Co/co+" is responsible (partly) for the pushing the black pigment to the endings (head/neck, tail, wings and foodfeathers). In a double doses this will give a better result.
The Dominant gene Pattern, in this case heterozygote (in single doses) "Pg/pg+" is responsible (partly) for the not pronounced mutiple pattern. Mostly as good as not to see on cocks.
To intensify the coloration you need to get in the gene Columbia in double doses (Co/Co) which he have now in a single doses and to get out the single doses for the multiple Pattern (pg+/pg+) which he have now in a single doses.

How you can do this ?
You need to cross him with a perniciata Argento hen,
only choses : a perniciata Argento hen who have the gene Columbia in a single doses (Co/co+)
and
only chose : a perniciata Argento hen who have the gene Pattern in a single doses (Pg/pg+).

That can bring you to a Columbia (looking) coloration : black patterned silver (incomplete) columbian (eb/eb Co/Co S/S*S/-).

From here it will be selection, selection, selection ... to can come to the better Columbia-colored subjects, and at the same time you need to do selections to become the better shapes.

An example, this is the result of 5 years selection for a "new" coloration and better type :


detail photo for the subtile coloration differences between grigioperla and Argento :

She is not yet finished in the itensification of the grigioperla. (making "new" colorations take mostly 7 generations).

To can come to this kind of coloration "mixing" you have to have some knowledge of acting and interacting of the color-genes.
I intend this is not just putting 2 colorations together and become a "new"-coloration in F1.
With some basic knowledge of the "color-genetics" everybody can have the fun to realize this.

The parents where :
- grigioperla, have as genetic-code E/E s+/s+*s+/- lav/lav
- Silver partridge, have as genetic-code eb/eb S/S*S/- Lav+/Lav+

The problem here was :
- "E" Dominantes the "eb" to "E/eb" (= unpure black)
- "S" mixes with "s+" to "S/s+ in cocks (= unpure Silver)
- "Lav+" Dominantes the "lav" to "Lav+/lav" (= nothing to see in the phenotype)

After 5 generations I was able to restore everything to a "pure" genetic-code : eb/eb S/S*S/- lav/lav of which the "hobbyname" is "ICEBEL" the opponent of "ISABEL" ;-)


I am working on 5 "new"-colorations in Silkies, I could use some help !
Lavorando a 5 "nuovo„-colorazioni in Moroseta, potrei usare una certa assistenza !

There are several ways in which the color-genes act and interact with each other:
Dominance, Epistasis, incomplete Dominance, recessivity and sex-linkage are the most common.

"I am working on 5 "new"-colorations in Silkies, I could use some help ! "


Do you want help to select?

clodiloa, 2-9-2011 8:33:

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"I am working on 5 "new"-colorations in Silkies, I could use some help ! "


Do you want help to select?

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Si, I am looking for someone in the centre and someone in the south of Italy (in the north of Italy I already found a co-breeder) to help making the last selections in my "new" colorations & types, and to present them officialy on Italian exhibitions.

Was also in the latest newsletter of Rachele : Newsletter inviata da: COCINCINA..passione per le razze avicole [99368]

"Danny sta cercando collaboratori per queste colorazioni, principalmente al centro e al sud che possano iniziare la selezione e il percorso espositivo".

I can help you. I wait your instructions....... Clodiloa

Danny_57, 02/09/2011 08.57:

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Si, I am looking for someone in the centre and someone in the south of Italy (in the north of Italy I already found a co-breeder) to help making the last selections in my "new" colorations & types, and to present them officialy on Italian exhibitions.

Was also in the latest newsletter of Rachele : Newsletter inviata da: COCINCINA..passione per le razze avicole [99368]

"Danny sta cercando collaboratori per queste colorazioni, principalmente al centro e al sud che possano iniziare la selezione e il percorso espositivo".

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interssante anche se credo che per creare nuove colorazioni si deve essere molto afferrati nella genetica altrimenti si rischia di andare a tastoni personalmente mi intrigava molto la millefiori nella moroseta credo che gli americani stiano lavorando su questa colorazione ne parlai anche con rachele a reggio emilia
tu danny stai lavorando su questa colorazione credi sia possibbile?
icebel e' una colorazione interessante anche se il nome non e' che mi piaccia molto in italiano la dovremmo chiamare bella ghiacciata o ghiaccio bello noo bruttissimo

emanuele-70, 2-9-2011 21:22:

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icebel e' una colorazione interessante anche se il nome non e' che mi piaccia molto in italiano la dovremmo chiamare bella ghiacciata o ghiaccio bello noo bruttissimo

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"Icebel" was only an invention of me to let see it is the opponent of "Isabel"

Cui pensate dé "Ice Silver" or "Ghiaccio-Argento" ;-)

You see what I intend ?

emanuele-70, 2-9-2011 21:22:

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personalmente mi intrigava molto la millefiori nella moroseta credo che gli americani stiano lavorando su questa colorazione ne parlai anche con rachele a reggio emilia
tu danny stai lavorando su questa colorazione credi sia possibbile?

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Si, in theory it is possible (also in practice) ! The problem is that a very detailed colorations as millefiori will be difficult to be observed good on the Silkie feathers structure.

Danny_57, 02/09/2011 21.37:

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"Icebel" was only an invention of me to let see it is the opponent of "Isabel"

Cui pensate dé "Ice Silver" or "Ghiaccio-Argento" ;-)

You see what I intend ?

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naturalmente scherzavo avevo capito che l'inyento tuo era quello di ghiaccio-argento or silver ice quanti pollai hai occupato in 5 anni di lavoro con 5 colorazioni diverse perche' il mio problema piu' grande sarebbe proprio lo spazio
una domanda sparvierox limone orlata nero cosa darebbero in prima e successive colorazioni?
un saluto emanuele

emanuele-70, 2-9-2011 23:05:

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naturalmente scherzavo avevo capito che l'inyento tuo era quello di ghiaccio-argento or silver ice quanti pollai hai occupato in 5 anni di lavoro con 5 colorazioni diverse perche' il mio problema piu' grande sarebbe proprio lo spazio

un saluto emanuele

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The point is, when we breed blind (=not knowing with what color-genes and how these color-genes comport themselves with each other) than yes we need MUCH space. (= playing casino).

When we have a little knowledge of the basic color-genetics, than we NOT need much space !
Is why is there the sondaggio for see if enough people are interested in a guide/book concerning this subject .

This is not difficult when started from the beginning (is even more simpel than learning to read) and not always little parts explained in separated questions.

emanuele-70, 2-9-2011 23:05:

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una domanda sparvierox limone orlata nero cosa darebbero in prima e successive colorazioni?
un saluto emanuele

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For your (rather complex) question look the genetic codes :
Sparviero : E/E S/S*S/- co+/co+ db+/db+ pg+/pg+ ml+/ml+ Ig+/Ig+ B/B X limone orlata nero : ER/ER s+/s+*s+/- Co/Co Db/Db Pg/Pg Ml/Ml ig/ig b+/b+
* (or limone orlata nero : eb/eb s+/s+*s+/- Co/Co Pg/Pg Ml/Ml ig/ig b+/b+)

What must we take in consideration in this partical case :

1.
I geni responsabili della colorazione di base del piumaggio (con oro o Argento) : E-locus & S-locus
2.
I geni responsabili del disegno secondario del piumaggio : Co-locus, Db-locus and Pg-locus
3.
I geni responsabili dell' assenza di pigmento : B-locus (temporaneo)
4.
I geni responsabili di diluizione di pigmento : Ig-locus
5.
I geni responsabili di rinforzione di pigmento : Ml-locus

Final.
There are several ways in which the color-genes act and interact with each other : Dominant, Epistasis, incomplete Dominant, recessivity and sex-linked are the most common.


Is this enough answer on your question ? I personally think we better wait for the guide/book in Italiano, no ? (which will make possible to understand all this ;-)

clodiloa, 2-9-2011 15:23:

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I can help you. I wait your instructions....... Clodiloa

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Clodiloa, did you got my ffz-mail ??

molto bella

Hi Danny,
I have no preference in colors, in which color do you want my help? What do I do to have the eggs or animals? Clodiloa